Women & Pop Punk - Where Are All The Girls?

By Jim Testa

Photos by Ashley Tyrrell, Melissa Jerkface, and Chelsea Lacatena

If a woman can run for president - and especially if a sickly 72-year old presidential candidate thinks a woman can be his vice-president - then you have to wonder, why aren’t there more girls in pop-punk? It’s a genre that’s given to a light touch and songs about falling in (or out) of love. Common sense suggests that women musicians should be drawn to the genre. But for every Discount or Muffs, there seem to be a dozen Screeching Weasels and Queers, metaphorically speaking. So we spoke to three of our favorite pop-punk gals, and asked them the same questions: What got you to play in a pop-punk band, and why don’t more women do it?

Lauren Measure – The Measure (SA)

Q: What was the first band that got you interested in music, to the point where you started to think that you wanted to be in a band. And if that band wasn't pop punk, what led you to the genre?

What made me start writing songs were songwriters like Ani Difranco, Dar Williams, Janis Ian and Indigo Girls. While I listened to a lot of punk rock as well (The Clash is my favorite band, and I grew up listening to The Sex Pistols, NOFX, Fugazi, Minor Threat, The Descendents, Rancid, Operation Ivy, all over the map) it was folk musicians, mainly women, and mostly queer, that were inspiring to me as far as songwriting went. What made me transition to start thinking about a full band was really, I think, Billy Bragg. He bridged the gap between folk music and punk rock and made me start including the songwriting I was doing in the same category as all the bands I loved so much.

Q: Did you have any female role models - girls or women in bands that made you say, "I want to be like her" or "hey, she can do it, I can do it too!"

Definitely Dar Williams, who worked her way up through the folk scene. That was definitely a DIY female that I looked up to. Ani Difranco was also someone where it wasn't just that I liked her music, she started her own label and helped support all these awesome artists she believed in. That kind of thing is really inspiring, especially when you're 16 and the only punk in your high school and know you want to DO things and are figuring everything out but don't really have it all together yet. It was the fact that they were women specifically singing about things like female empowerment, rape, sexuality, personal politics, the right to choose, etc. etc. and those were things that set them aside from a lot of the male-fronted bands who may have had political lyrics, but just not from that point of view, obviously.

In the punk scene though, I really didn't have many female role-models locally. There weren't many bands, if any, that had women in them in central New Jersey and if there were, I wasn't really into them. So throughout high school there weren't many women in bands around that I could look up to in a local way. I was really into bands like Bikini Kill, Bratmobile, Sleater Kinney, X, and Dance Hall Crashers though, and totally looked up to them.

When I was 16 I was at a summer camp where they had a workshop on the origins of punkrock. One of the counselors put on the record "And the Weathermen Shrugged Their Shoulders" by the band The Ex who are pretty avant-garde and were definitely off my radar screen at that point. She handed us all lyric sheets and I remember reading the following and it totally blew my mind. I still almost cry when I hear this song, I just think it's that powerful: "with fashions and ideals / we are fooled by sharks / unhappiness and grief / Is what that living marks / so many women / went that way before / stupid competitions, it's not worth living for / stop stupid competitions"

The winter before we started The Measure, I met The Epoxies and started hanging out with them when they'd come around on tour. I think their frontwoman, Roxy, is really inspirational for a lot of young girls and it was wonderful to see someone being successful at pop-punk who I could identify with. She's an amazing lady that I'm so glad to have gotten to know a bit, and I think her being in a full-time band pushed me to be able to do that as well. I haven't seen her in a long time but she was always very encouraging to me. I believe she did all the artwork for the Epoxies records as well, which is an interesting similarity.

Q: Would you agree that women seem to be underrepresented in pop punk, certainly in comparison to rock as a whole but even compared to other genres of punk? If not, why not. And if yes, why do you think that's so?

I think they're definitely underrepresented in pop-punk and you see more women playing more hardcore-punk or indie rock than you do pop-punk. I think that's directly proportional to the number of girls who go to shows though. It's a very male-dominated scene and you don't see as many girls getting directly involved. I think that's really unfortunate but luckily the area I'm from (New Jersey/New York metropolitan area) has a lot of girls in bands, especially pop-punk, so I don't really notice it as much around here. When we started the band, I was often the only girl playing at the show other than maybe Miranda from Hunchback, who we've played a lot of shows with. There are a lot more girls around now, but it hasn't always been that way.

I think on the local level there are plenty of women in bands you could call pop-punk, but the difference is that hardly any of them go on tour, and keep touring. I really want to see folks like This is My Fist or One Reason all the time but they don't tour very often. Guys get to see dudes in touring bands all the time but the girls listening to the same bands don't get to see girls coming through town very often, if at all. I just think that's unfortunate and hopefully, if gas prices ever go down, maybe that will change. I don't necessarily think it's an important distinction to make, as a girl in a band is no "better" than a guy in a band, and vice versa, but it would be great to see more women getting out there and contributing to their scene by being in a band.

Q: Have you ever experienced overt sexism in your career as a musician, like men not wanting to talk to you about money or booking because "you're just the girl in a band" or anything like that?

Absolutely. It happens all the time. I get the standard "are you IN the band or just WITH the band?" all the time from door-guys or folks who work at the venues we play at. Money and booking hasn't been an issue since I'm the one that handles the majority of that for my band but I'm sure we've been turned down for a show or two because someone doesn't like "girl bands" or something stupid like that. I can't remember ever being talked down to or disrespected for being a woman but that may be because I just don't even think of that as a possibility. I forget a lot of the time that those prejudices still exist, but I'm sure they're still there, unfortunately.

Q: Anything you’d like to add?

The Measure has been together for four years now and is the first band I've ever been in. I consider it to be my longest relationship and also the hardest thing I've ever done. Being a woman on stage, in front of a largely male audience, isn't easy no matter how confident I feel at the time You're getting judged by someone whether you like it or not, and odds are at some point it's going to be for the thing you have no control over. I'd like to think I'm past that but I can get pretty shy and very sensitive and always have been. Whether it's playing shows, getting in a van with four dudes for weeks at a time, having to explain to someone I don't know that I'm in a punkrock band, or figuring out what lyrics to write, it forces me to face a lot of things about myself and about my friends that I might not have thought about before. It's both the hardest thing, and the greatest thing I've ever done and I can't picture my life right now without it.

Going somewhere we've never been before, playing for a crowd of people we don't know, and knowing that there are younger girls watching us play who might not see women play in bands very often, is an amazing feeling. Even guys have approached me saying that they don't see very many punk bands with girls, and they think it's awesome. I think that's a large part of what keeps me going with this is the feeling that it's possible to say something through our songs that might help someone or inspire them. The fact that a lot of those people might be women is pretty awesome and I'm grateful to be in that position sometimes.

Hallie Bullit - The Unlovables

Q: What was the first band that got you interested in music, to the point where you started to think that you wanted to be in a band.? And if thatband wasn't pop punk, what led you to the genre?

I always wanted to be in a band. I grew up being a music fanatic (new wave stuff in the 80's mostly) and singing in my room for hours on end. But it wasn't until I started listening to pop punk that I was really inspired to write songs--and that was the point when starting a band started to seem like something I could actually do, rather than something that I would daydream about. I owe it all to Lou Mansdorf and Bruce
Kahaner who were running Melted Records out of Astoria, Queens in the mid-nineties. Those guys introduced me to all the bands that would end up inspiring my band: Screeching Weasel, The Queers, The Muffs, etc. Those bands were so good and so SIMPLE, and I thought "Hey, maybe I could write awesome songs like that!"

Q: Did you have any female role models - girls or women in bands that made you say, "I want to be like her"? or "hey, she can do it, I can do it too!"

My mom! She fronted a great rock/pop band called when I was a kid. My dad would take me to her gigs and I would drink Shirley Temples and just soak up the whole rock scene vibe. Her band won some song writing contest and got one of their songs played on WNEW (the big NYC rock station back in those days), and I remember thinking she was just the COOLEST. And like any other girl growing up in the 80's, of course, I was hugely into The Pretenders, Cyndi Lauper, and the Go-Go's.

Q: Would you agree that women seem to be underrepresented in pop punk, certainly in comparison to rock as a whole but even compared to other genres of punk? If not, why not? And if yes, why do you think that's so?

I love the pop punk, and I have always felt really welcome by the fans and bands in this scene. I was really, really shocked, though, when we played the big Insubordination Records pop-punk festival last year, and The Unlovables were one of only TWO female-fronted bands playing this huge 3 day event. I think that's when it really hit home for me that although I feel at home in this scene, there is a dynamic happening that is not encouraging girls to participate. I can't really put my finger on what might be at the root of it, but I would love to see it change!

Q: Have you ever? experienced overt sexism in your career as a musician? Like men not wanting to talk to you about money or booking because "you're just the girl in a band" or anything like that?

No. On the business end, being a woman has only helped me. I think I have an easier time getting people to talk to me because no one wants to be mean to girl, haha. The only sexism I've dealt with is from fans who are never going to take what we do seriously because they think of us as a "girl band" (even though there are 3 guys in the Unlovables). I also occasionally feel that there are certain bands that we are never asked to play with because of being a "girl band"... you know, sometimes I'll see a show being put together that I think we would musically fit in perfectly with, and yet we won't get asked to play. Less popular bands that are just as poppy as us but fronted by a GUY will be included, but not us; and the only explanation I can come up with is that someone thinks we won't fit in because we're too girly. That can be discouraging, when we've worked so hard to build our fan base, and yet sometimes I feel like we're still invisible to many of the bands around us. But, all that being said - the people that will never like us because we're too girly for them are FAR outnumbered by the people who are excited to see a good pop-punk band fronted by a girl!

Erin Hays – Full of Fancy

Q: What was the first band that got you interested in music, to the point where you started to think that you wanted to be in a band. And if that band wasn't pop punk, what led you to the genre?

I would have to say Superchunk. I got really into them in high school and became obsessed with their music. They aren't really pop punk, but their earlier stuff has a punk twist to it. I would say the band that led me into the pop punk genre was the ramones. I believe i started listen to them in 6th grade. My sister had ramones mania on tape and played it while we were driving somewhere. i instantly fell in love with them and the love affair has never end.

Q: Did you have any female role models - girls or women in bands that made you say, "I want to be like her" or "hey, she can do it, I can do it too!"

I would have to say my female role models have been Laura Balance from Superchunk, Kathleen Hanna from Bikini Kill, and Kim Deal from The Pixies and The Breeders. These women really had a huge impact on my musical career. I remember sitting in my room, daydreaming of one day being able to play with these rock legends. These amazing women made me want to run out and start a band of my own as quickly as I possibly could. I am truly grateful to them. Today, I am still inspired by women musicians, especially the ones around me. Marissa from Screaming Females, Lauren from The Measure (SA), Sheena from Lemuria, and especially Miranda Taylor from Hunchback and Full of Fancy, just to name a few. These are not only my friends, but my influences. They are amazing musicians and inspire me to keep challenging myself. I have no doubt that these women will one day rise to the greatness of the women i listed at the beginning of this paragraph.

To be honest, I think in the past yes, but today, I don't think this is true. There are bands all over the country popping up, with more and more women in them. I am blessed that I can be a part of a scene with so many talented women in it. I would say that the scene may still be more dominant by the male population, but this is changing. About 5 years ago, I know I would be one of the only females in a band playing in my area. Whenever I would see another female musician, I would rejoice. It was wonderful to see another girl, besides me, in a band rocking her ass off. Today, everytime I go to or play a show, there seems to be a woman/women in about half of the bands playing. I know this question was directed at the pop punk genre, but im basically talking about all genres of music. Sorry for straying from the question Jim!

Q: Have you ever experienced overt sexism in your career as a musician, like men not wanting to talk to you about money or booking because "you're just the girl in a band" or anything like that?

Actually, I have encountered at least two instance of sexism in my musical career. It's sad, but true. Once I was playing a show in Staten Island. I was in a band with 2 other female musicians and we were loading our equipment into the venue. After everything was loaded in, we were going into the club to join the rest of our bandmates. As we were walking in, a bouncer stopped us and told us we had to go over to pay before we could enter. I wouldn't have had a problem with this, if this guy hadn't seen us loading in. Apparently, he assumed we were girlfriends of the guys in the band, instead of band members, simply because we were woman. Hello! It's the 21st century buddy! Women are in bands! Get with it! It really annoyed me, enough for me to write a song about it. So I guess I would like to thank that dumb bouncer for inspiring me to write about such a ridiculous experience. I think this annoys me even more because woman have been a part of music for decades, yet it still hasnt sunk in with some people that if we are helping load into a club, we must be with the band, instead of in the band. This is just one example, but this has happened to me twice. Other than that, I have never had a problem with people coming up to me to talk about the band, or booking shows because i am a woman. I actually deal with a lot of the booking. Hopefully one day any sexism regarding women in music will be elminated. I guess in a perfect world, nothing would have happened in the first place.

Jenna Ali - It’s Alive Records

As far as "women in pop punk" goes, I'm not sure it's really all that different than the shortage of women in all non-pop music. Growing up I generally saw guys behind guitars, and ladies on the mic, doing the pop star thing, dancing around. Who do you think little girls see more of now? Brittney Spears and Hannah Montana, or, say, the Soviettes? How often do you think little girls see real women playing real instruments and, you know, really rocking out? My guess is not often. I can only imagine that has at least a little to do with it.

To be honest with you, I've always found the shortage of females in this scene (generally speaking, not just in bands) kind of strange. I mean, look at this message board. What's the ratio these days? 4:1? And when you go to a show? The ratios seem about the same, although I have to say that it seems even worse with the beardcore shows... It's a mystery to me, honestly. I can say, though, that the ladies I have met through pop-punk have almost invariably been quality broads. So at least there's that.

As far as the label goes, we're always open to any band, whether it's all guy, all girl, or anything in between. We've got a split release coming out with one band being an all girl band from Japan, the Dazes, who are totally fantastic. What it boils down to is that we've got this label to just put out music we like, not to make some sort of strides for females or any other sort of political statement. We basically just judge on the awesomeness of the songs and not on what equipment the bandmembers are packing, so to speak. I can honestly say the male/female question doesn't even really get taken into account.

GUEST EDITORIAL:
Rebuttal: Good Job But Watch The Stereotypes!

Hello Jim – my name is Jenn Thomas and I used to play drums in a DC band called Cry Baby Cry and nowadays play drums in a band called Girl Loves Distortion. I read your article on “Women & Pop Punk – Where Are All the Girls?” Very fun. Your topic is one I have been pretty vocal about for years; recently I helped organize the Girls Rock! DC all-girl rock camp here in DC which was an astounding success! (If only camps like this had been around when I was a young girl!)
When Cry Baby Cry toured the country in 2001 we played with (if I remember the count correctly) 212 male musicians and 19 female. Hhhhmmmm. On the tour I interviewed many people on my hand-held video camera asking the question “Why aren’t there more women in rock?” I got the craziest answers from “I don’t know but I want a girl in my band” to “because there are more men in the world” (seriously). Today I still ask the question and I feel we are getting some clarity on common reasons why.

Given my experiences, I’d like to respectfully offer some feedback to your column.
Sadly, I feel your introductory paragraph demonstrates one of the main reasons why there aren’t more women in pop and rock. Stereotypes.

Here’s my take based on my experiences. Many women may feel strong societal pressures to conform with traditional stereotypes of femininity in order to fit in. I know I felt that way when I was growing up. It was always a struggle to reconcile my inner pounding ROCK with being “attractive” as a “girl.” When I asked for drum lessons in 4th grade my well-intentioned mom signed me up for ballet to improve my gracefulness. (Today I still have people stop me and tell my I walk too heavily, “like a man.”) When I wanted to be involved in music in my late teens, rather than playing an instrument, I helped construct punk venues in my home town (Dallas, TX) for other bands to play at. People always welcomed my organizing skills but looked skeptically at the likelihood of me having musical skills. I was perpetually on the edge of music, but never playing. Of course, ultimately this is my fault; I am in charge of my own destiny. But I have to forgive myself somewhat because I didn’t have many role models and I simply hadn’t figured it out yet. Then, when I moved to DC in 1983 (at age 19) I met some people who just handed me old drum parts. I built my own kit, gave myself permission to play, and it was Done.

Done, but still a struggle. Two stories: I’ve had five short-term drum teachers, four men and one woman. I ended lessons in three of those situations because the teacher began to hit on me and made me feel uncomfortable. Second story: I was at a party and a friend introduced me to a local guitarist who was looking for a drummer. The guitarist took one look at me and appeared to mentally dismiss me – he said “Sure, let’s jam” but then never returned my calls. A year later my new band played with his and afterwards he was all over me with “wow, you’re good; I had no idea. Shit, we should have jammed.” Heck, here’s a third story: I was on a national tour doing sound check at a club and the sound guys said to me, “Okay, hit the snare drum… that’s the one on the left.”

I believe my experiences come from the perceptions of others about how I should be as a woman, even a “woman musician.” Stereotypes.

And that is where I disagree with your introductory paragraph. You write “It’s a genre that’s given to a light touch and songs about falling in (or out) of love. Common sense suggests that women musicians should be drawn to the genre.” Common sense? No, not common sense. Stereotypes. Women having light touches and being drawn to songs about love are stereotypes. I have neither and I definitely am a woman.

I recognize that your article’s intention was to draw attention to our absence in pop and rock. For that YOU ROCK, no matter the details of your intro paragraph. But I respectfully suggest that you monitor your stereotypes. Music is empowering – don’t imply we woman want to demonstrate a light feminine touch or that we are inclined to sing about love. That only hurts women trapped by stereotypes. Using such works against the very focus of your article, increasing the presence of women in rock.

Given that criticism, you still ROCK for writing your article. I loved reading it and I know many other women musicians will appreciate the insight. Thank you for not overlooking our absence. Every bit of attack helps.

Thanks again!

-jenn
Jenn Fox-Thomas